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barrwalk  
#161 Posted : 16 December 2011 10:25:31(UTC)
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Good morning Forum Users,

It seems to me that we are trying to 'have our cake and eat it' here. Of course we don't want all the disruption to the flow of traffic into the heart of Whaley Bridge (it might stop the monthly talking shop at the Mechanics) BUT any transport network sooner or later needs maintenance and bridges are rather important in road and rail networks. If the bridge fails then you would see some disruption to W.B. and the flow of stone-carrying lorries would choke our small town to 'death'.

Like you, bridges do get old. Like you, they have many unseen parts that cease to do the job that they were designed to do.

The conclusion is that sooner or later you and the bridge will need remedial work if you or it are to survive. That's inescapable!

If the bridge was rebuilt and the 'walls' were put back in place demonstrating their Victorian 'beauty' would that not be satisfactory to all?

furnessvale  
#162 Posted : 16 December 2011 19:07:18(UTC)
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JonG wrote:

Manyy thanks PB  for this. It will be quite interesting to see how people react to 24 freight trains a day passing through Whaley.

These will presumably be passing quite slowly through Whaley over the bridge, as the speed is limited  at the moment.

Cheers

Jon.

They will certainly hasten the demise of the current (cracked) cast iron bridge!

George

Whaley End  
#163 Posted : 17 December 2011 17:29:25(UTC)
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My 1st post
I have lived in Whaley for 63 years in fact I was born at 13 Buxton road 50 yards from bridge42,
When I had finished reading all the post on this subject I thought I should take a closer look at the bridge, so this morning I drove though and also walked through. In MY opinion the bridge looks a mess grey,rusting,and should be replaced, sorry if that's not what you want to here.
Over the Christmas period the offending trains are to use the bridge as network rail are repairing dove tunnel so we will se what problems they give to whaley.

Whaley end
Capital-of-the-Peak  
#164 Posted : 17 December 2011 18:40:29(UTC)
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Oh Dear, Oh Dear, Oh Dear!

There are going to be freight trains through Whaley Bridge for a limited period.

How will people manage??

The same way as people in other towns with freight trains manage, and the same way that people in Whaley Bridge used to manage up to the mid-1960's when there were freight trains all the time!!

 

Ferni  
#165 Posted : 22 December 2011 20:12:04(UTC)
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Buxton Ad. today, page 12:

Quote: Diversion to keep power stations online:

..... Dove Holes tunnel on the freight-only line between Peak Forest & Chinley, is to close for 9 days between Christmas Eve and January 2nd , while Network Rail carries out track and drainage renewal.

The closure means 24 freight trains a day with as many as 22 wagons each, will be diverted via the passenger Buxton to Manchester line....unquote.

 

... guess we'll get used to the regular rumbles over the festive period.  It'll give the sprouts a reprieve I suppose

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by user 22 December 2011 20:48:07(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified


Speak your truth quietly and clearly, and listen to others -even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.
peter  
#166 Posted : 24 December 2011 14:39:43(UTC)
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That must be 24 trains over the 9 days, I would imagine that most of the quarries will be closed over this holiday period. Newspapers are not a reliable source of information the best use is for wrapping chips or in the wc. Two freights noticed today.

furnessvale  
#167 Posted : 24 December 2011 21:05:43(UTC)
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peter wrote:

That must be 24 trains over the 9 days, I would imagine that most of the quarries will be closed over this holiday period. Newspapers are not a reliable source of information the best use is for wrapping chips or in the wc. Two freights noticed today.

Given the Christmas/New Year construction industry break I agree that 24 a day sounds a lot but the Tunstead to Brunner Mond service alone will require 2 loaded and 2 empties daily 7 days a week for starters.

George

R. Stephenson-Smythe  
#168 Posted : 25 December 2011 10:56:10(UTC)
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Not the best of photos I know but a glimpse of a freight train of yesteryear at Whaley Station. 1950’s I think before anyone asks.
 
R. S-S
 
Thanks Norm.

Norm  
#169 Posted : 25 December 2011 17:27:20(UTC)
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Photo from previous post.

Edited by user 26 December 2011 09:46:00(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Norm attached the following image(s):
6568410717_3a03e30e6e_z.jpg
NevClarke  
#170 Posted : 27 December 2011 07:58:29(UTC)
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Aware that this is the holiday season, so the number of freight trains is probably reduced; However we've recently moved house to within a few hundred yards of the railway line and can't say we ever notice them passing unless we're looking out of the window at them.

“It all sounds like the sort of scheme Elmer Fudd might dream up while drunk.”


Nev Clarke
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R. Stephenson-Smythe  
#171 Posted : 27 December 2011 09:46:34(UTC)
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NevClarke wrote:
Aware that this is the holiday season, so the number of freight trains is probably reduced; However we've recently moved house to within a few hundred yards of the railway line and can't say we ever notice them passing unless we're looking out of the window at them.

 

 

And that is simply because the line has a 25mph speed limit for freight and also because when it passes your house it is slowing down to cross Bridge 42 at no more than 10mph. To slow a 1,000 ton train down to that speed the brakes would be being applied somewhere near Combs.
You might just possibly notice a slight change when the trains are thundering past at 50 mph.
It might be prudent to check the subsidence clause in your insurance policy and as all insurers are on the ball these days it might also be wise to notify them of this change of circumstances which possibly could affect your property.
I would imagine Mr. Frederick Robinson will have checked his policy by now as his property already has a remarkable lean on it and is even closer to the railway than yours.
 
R. S-S
 
 
furnessvale  
#172 Posted : 27 December 2011 11:02:11(UTC)
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R. Stephenson-Smythe wrote:

And that is simply because the line has a 25mph speed limit for freight and also because when it passes your house it is slowing down to cross Bridge 42 at no more than 10mph. To slow a 1,000 ton train down to that speed the brakes would be being applied somewhere near Combs.

You might just possibly notice a slight change when the trains are thundering past at 50 mph.
It might be prudent to check the subsidence clause in your insurance policy and as all insurers are on the ball these days it might also be wise to notify them of this change of circumstances which possibly could affect your property.
I would imagine Mr. Frederick Robinson will have checked his policy by now as his property already has a remarkable lean on it and is even closer to the railway than yours.
 
R. S-S
 
 

I am not certain how far by rail it is from Combs to Br 42, but legally, every train has to be able to come to a complete stand from maximum line speed in 1.25 miles so I think they can leave braking a bit later than Combs.

I am not surprised the poster has hardly noticed the trains as, on long welded rails and even at 50mph, they glide past.  Let us have a discussion about the road alternative which made my windows buzz every few seconds when I lived on the A6.

I do not know Mr Robinson's house but, if it is the one I am thinking about, I would hazard a guess that mining and road traffic are far more significant factors in its present shape.

By the way, stone trains typically weigh 2500 tonnes and every train replaces 75 of the heaviest road vehicles currently allowed on our roads.  I say currently, because moves are afoot to increase lorry weights (size already will increase from 1st January) so that hauliers can take traffic from rail and put the stone back where we all want it (I don't think) past all our front doors.

George

furnessvale  
#173 Posted : 27 December 2011 11:36:44(UTC)
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furnessvale wrote:

By the way, stone trains typically weigh 2500 tonnes and every train replaces 75 of the heaviest road vehicles currently allowed on our roads.  I say currently, because moves are afoot to increase lorry weights (size already will increase from 1st January) so that hauliers can take traffic from rail and put the stone back where we all want it (I don't think) past all our front doors.

George

Further to my last posting, I did give our MP the opportunity to agree that increasing lorry weights and sizes would be detremental to the quality of lives for his constituents.  He declined to agree but instead lectured me on how lorries were vital to all of us and that increased size and weight was a matter for the EU to decide.

He did express confidence that our negotiator would obtain the "best outcome for Britain" which presumably means the cheapest option for hauliers ie heavier lorries, as I previously stated we have already agreed to longer ones from 1st Jan.

George

NevClarke  
#174 Posted : 27 December 2011 12:30:36(UTC)
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Leaving aside the location of our property,wasn't aware that RSS had a tag on me although I thought I heard footsteps on the stairs the other night, the empty trains make more noise than the full ones as they are more likely to squeak. I say this from experience in a previous time before my life in Whaley.

I believe in a mixed approach to haulage but cannot see how taking the produce from the quarry by road can be more economical than by train unless the drivers are waiving their rights under the working time directive and/or they are being paid a pittance for is a hard job. I also agree with George in that road traffic causes a great deal disturbance and damage than it travelling by train; never mind the gridlock caused in Whaley and Furness when the motorway shuts.

Edited by user 27 December 2011 13:01:57(UTC)  | Reason: Decided that trains squeak rather than speak, aware that other opinions exist


“It all sounds like the sort of scheme Elmer Fudd might dream up while drunk.”


Nev Clarke
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R. Stephenson-Smythe  
#175 Posted : 27 December 2011 16:22:37(UTC)
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Nev,
 
If you read the thread closely you will see that I am with George all the way with respect to moving stone by rail. I can’t see much of an argument against it.
 
I am not in favour of a multi national company saying that a listed bridge is a problem and they want rid of it.
They are obliged to maintain it and they have not done so. Why the Borough has not issued an enforcement notice on them is anybody’s guess.
If you or I bought a listed property and started to neglect it they would be on us like a ton of bricks.
 
Rail Track or Network Rail or whoever they are known as these days should be forced to preserve that bridge and continue to maintain it. I am sure they will have enough money in their back pockets, so to speak.
Look at the scheme Buggyite has proposed: that will preserve the listed structure but the freight trains will still be able to travel over it at speed.
Is there something wrong with trying to save a listed structure? The whole meaning of the word listed is that it should be protected.
 
I am pleased we are on speaking terms again.
 
R. S-S
tyke  
#176 Posted : 27 December 2011 16:52:15(UTC)
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I think many on here are creating an image of residents holding down ornaments as the 4-15 passes by in the style of some early 1960's sitcom with the increase in freight.. That is simply not the case! Modern railways are much smoother and quieter than their previous steam hauled predecessors. I think Mr Robinson's house (all three) and Mr Clarke's will have shown much more signs of wear and tear in the days of steam rather than today....they have survived pretty much unscathed in the 100 or so years so far.

My views on demolishing bridge 42 are well known from previous posts. It is a fact that the Buxton line loses money and is subsidised. The Mc Nulty report into lines like ours has not suggested directly that they should close (more by implicaion perhaps as some reviewers have noted) but it is obvious that there needs to be an increase in usage for it to survive in the long term whether passenger or freight.

NevClarke  
#177 Posted : 27 December 2011 21:02:19(UTC)
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Quite agree RSS. Apologies if I gave the impression otherwise.

Don't think they should be allowed to neglect their responsibilities at all. The fact remains that they have been and the bridge is in a sorry state. If the appeal doesn't go in their favour their hand will be forced and the Sword of Damocles can be put back in its sheath and they will be forced into some form of restorative action. They're trying to get a good deal for themselves, as is the case with capitalism.

“It all sounds like the sort of scheme Elmer Fudd might dream up while drunk.”


Nev Clarke
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furnessvale  
#178 Posted : 28 December 2011 11:50:38(UTC)
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R. Stephenson-Smythe wrote:

 

Nev,
 
If you read the thread closely you will see that I am with George all the way with respect to moving stone by rail. I can’t see much of an argument against it.
 
I am not in favour of a multi national company saying that a listed bridge is a problem and they want rid of it.
They are obliged to maintain it and they have not done so. Why the Borough has not issued an enforcement notice on them is anybody’s guess.
If you or I bought a listed property and started to neglect it they would be on us like a ton of bricks.
 
Rail Track or Network Rail or whoever they are known as these days should be forced to preserve that bridge and continue to maintain it. I am sure they will have enough money in their back pockets, so to speak.
Look at the scheme Buggyite has proposed: that will preserve the listed structure but the freight trains will still be able to travel over it at speed.
Is there something wrong with trying to save a listed structure? The whole meaning of the word listed is that it should be protected.
 
I am pleased we are on speaking terms again.
 
R. S-S

I agree with the general principles of your argument but I disagree that a cast iron structure cracking can be described as neglect.  There are no external signs available to the engineer of the impending cracking and even if there were, the only solutions would be replacement with a better material or closure.

I have previously stated that the best solution would be a modern structure hiding behind the original cast iron spandrels, but a desire to increase road clearances and allow larger lorries to pass through Whaley seems to rule this out.

George

High Peak Harry  
#179 Posted : 28 December 2011 15:21:15(UTC)
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tyke wrote:

It is a fact that the Buxton line loses money and is subsidised. The Mc Nulty report into lines like ours has not suggested directly that they should close (more by implicaion perhaps as some reviewers have noted) but it is obvious that there needs to be an increase in usage for it to survive in the long term whether passenger or freight.



If train fares were more realistic people would use them more. How come the fare from New Mills to Manchester is roughly double that from Marple when there is only 5 minutes extra on the journey? Surely, if any government is serious about the environment (be it bridges or pollution) they would do more to encourage greater use of the public transport system.
Whaley Ash  
#180 Posted : 28 December 2011 18:19:14(UTC)
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Incidentally, Network Rail are in fact owned by the Government, which took over the corpse of Railtrack following its inevitable collapse (it was a disaster waiting to happen following privatisation, in fact, multiple disasters happened, with much loss of life). It's what used to be called 'nationalisation', but they have to call it something else these days, otherwise readers of the Daily Mail and Daily Express would have a collective cardiac arrest.

Not a scientific opinion, but the cracking of the supports is much more likely to be due to mining subsidence - there are two worked out coal seams underneath them. Although the railway company paid for the coal to be left in situ (beneath the bridge supports), and then for the main haulage roadways to be packed on abandonment, it would be no big surprise if there had been some settling over the course of the 20th century.

Ash
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