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CllrJonG  
#1 Posted : 06 August 2010 21:10:36(UTC)
CllrJonG
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Hi,

Network Rail have applied to demolish the Grade2 listed bridge across Buxton Road so that they can rebuild the bridge to carry heavy freight at 50mph in addition to passenger trains. This is the arched structure built in 1863 next to Whaley Bridge School.

The planning application and details are to be found here:

http://planning.highpeak.gov.uk/portal/servlets/ApplicationSearchServlet?PKID=121959

The application number is HPK/2010/0289

There is very little time left to make your objections known if you have any. Please use the link to make your objections known.

The plan will be decided at a planning committee meeting on 13th September.

WBTC have objected to the plan on the grounds that

1) Freight trains will create noise and intrusiveness through the night and day in Whaley bridgeand other villages on the Buxton to Edgeley Junction line.(BEJ line)

2) The proposed replacement of the listed stucture should be subject to a consultation and selection process for an appropriate design.

3) Network rail should be required to provide details of the actual numbers and frequency of freight trains or estimated tonnage of freight transfer on the BEJ line as it is impossible for the planning authority to determine whether the benefits to the public justify removing the bridge, in line with the requirements of PPG15,3.17

 

Unfortunately English Heritage have reluctantly accepted  that the bridge, even if in perfect structural condition would not be sufficient to carry heavy freight traffic at 50mph. They say that if Network Rail can make its strategic and operational case for the need for Bridge42 to carry heavy freight traffic at 50mph such that in he view of the local planning authority and the secretary of state it justifies the demolition of the grade 2 listed building, then questions of strengthening the existing structure need not be pursued any further.

However, if Network Rail dont make a case for 50mph traffic, then there remains the possibility of strengthening the existing bridge to deal with lower speed freight traffic.

It is therfore down to whether Network Rail have made the case in their application sufficiently well for 50mph freight  that it justifies demolishing the bridge, and whether there are substantial benefits for the community(not just local community) which would decisively outweigh the loss resulting from demolition.

Please express your objections(or support) for the proposal on the website via th elink above.

I am very dissapointed that Network Rail are doing this, but I can see why they are doing it., and I fear the process is inexorable. Bridge 42 is the only bridge on the BEJ line which limits fast and heavy freight from being carrried on the line. I hope my fears about the potential volume of freight on the line are unfounded, but the supporting documentation indicates that  there are a number of opportunities considered for the line regarding freight transfer, and I suspect that like a new motorway, traffic will increase to fill the  available line capability.

Jon.

Jon Goldfinch - Forum Administrator and Town Councillor
Whaley Bridge Town Council - Fernilee Ward

cllr.jong.wbtc@googlemail.com
R. Stephenson-Smythe  
#2 Posted : 07 August 2010 16:34:59(UTC)
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A very good afternoon to you, JonG,
 
Unfortunately I think this is already a ‘done-deal’.
There is virtually no chance of the Planning Officers or the pathetic body of Councillors that masquerade as a Planning Committee standing up to or taking on Network Rail.
The members of the Planning Committee, to a man, have absolutely no idea of planning policies or laws. They have no vision or sense of preservation except for self-preservation. You might as well ask Whaley School Infants School to make the decision. Have you been to one of the Planning Committee’s meetings? It’s more like music hall or a Whitehall Farce than a planning debate. As far as Planning is concerned they are in effect illiterate. In fact you do have to wonder once more: “Can your Councillor read or write”.
If it goes to Committee and Network Rail send a speaker the Committee will, again to a man, sit with their collective mouths wide open, collectively scratching their heads probably wondering why they are missing an episode of Coronation Street and then one of them, to try to put an end to their torment because they will have no idea what is going on, will say something like: “Should we vote on this or something? I’ll put forward a motion to approve.”
It will then be approved probably unanimously and when they get outside the Committee Room then they will start discussing what they should have done inside. Some of them will even be surprised when they read Thursday’s Advertiser that it was approved as they thought they had opposed it.
The Committee are the last chance of stopping this if it so chooses. It should be an interesting debate but it won’t be.
 
The Railway will simply steamroll them to get what it wants.
It will not even consult with or listen to either the residents or JGTC so as I say and I really, really hope I am wrong, but it looks like a ‘done-deal’.
 
I wonder what the laws are in America and Canada relating to trains laden with thousands of tons of stone thundering 20 feet above infants going to and from school.
 
Let’s suppose the train does have to slow down to go past the school; how long will that take?
To be honest I don’t know but if it starts to slow at about the Board Inn and then starts to pick up speed after Whaley Station it might add 5 minutes to the journey.
Big deal. What a shame.
 
By the way can you let us know how many other schools these trains will pass so closely to? And by that I mean over the top of and not below such as Furness Vale. Wasn’t the old school at Chapel just opposite The New Inn removed because someone thought that there might be a disaster if a train left the tracks where it passed high above the school?
 
R. S-S
 
An old snap shot of that area showing the bridge. Best capture it Norm:
 

R. Stephenson-Smythe  
#3 Posted : 08 August 2010 10:17:29(UTC)
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Good Morning to you, Well Known Norm,
 
Thank you for putting the photo on your web site before Rodney Trotter or a rather large hen or miniature camel appeared on the scene.
 
I did also fear the chimney might attract a brightly coloured parrot.
 
You may have to change your name to Quick Draw in future.
 
R. S-S
buggyite  
#4 Posted : 08 August 2010 13:57:29(UTC)
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What I wonder about is what is really behind this...

As I understand it, there's only one freight train per day on the line through Whaley, limestone empties returning to Hindlow, I think. That's about 7.30pm, but there may be the return working.

At least 95% of the freight trains from and to the Buxton area use the "Midland" line through Chapel Central station, and then through Bugsworth.

SO, why exactly do Network Rail want to run trains at 50mph speeds down the Stockport, Disley & Whaley Bridge route?  Are they envisaging a big increase in railbound freight from the Buxton area?

Or, do they have a longer-term plan to close the Midland line through Dove Holes Tunnel? I really don't understand the requirement, and perhaps JGTC might like to ask specifically why this expensive bridge replacement is needed purely for one train of empties.

Buggyite
I am a yellow factioner!
umtali  
#5 Posted : 08 August 2010 16:34:50(UTC)
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R. Stephenson-Smythe wrote:

 

Good Morning to you, Well Known Norm,
 
Thank you for putting the photo on your web site before Rodney Trotter or a rather large hen or miniature camel appeared on the scene.
 
I did also fear the chimney might attract a brightly coloured parrot.
 
You may have to change your name to Quick Draw in future.
 
R. S-S

 

Looks to me like “Little Bo Peep” lost some of your sheep on the way, the dog looks a bit wary of him.
R. Stephenson-Smythe  
#6 Posted : 08 August 2010 17:15:41(UTC)
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Typical, certainly expected and definitely, once again, absolutely pathetic.
 
R. S-S
umtali  
#7 Posted : 08 August 2010 17:31:01(UTC)
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Sorry have you been waiting all day?

Just returned from a weekend in New Mills and Whaley Bridge.

buggyite  
#8 Posted : 08 August 2010 17:38:36(UTC)
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Did you come across any camels, parrots or Trotter family members to photograph?

Buggyite
I am a yellow factioner!
G. Jackson  
#9 Posted : 08 August 2010 17:39:58(UTC)
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R.S-S has taken the words right out of my mouth.What a load of rubbish. Why does he continue to do this?

G. Jackson  
#10 Posted : 08 August 2010 17:44:34(UTC)
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By the time I had written the last post** had amended his photograph making R.S-S 's and my posts gratuitous.

For people who missed it** had doctored the photograph putting SWIZZELS on the side of the chimney and a sheepdog in the foreground.

Edited by user 08 August 2010 17:56:38(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

umtali  
#11 Posted : 08 August 2010 17:51:06(UTC)
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You do know this is not the history section ?
Or did you - got a bit over excited with the setup did we.
umtali  
#12 Posted : 08 August 2010 18:18:13(UTC)
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G. Jackson wrote:

By the time I had written the last post** had amended his photograph making R.S-S 's and my posts gratuitous.

For people who missed it** had doctored the photograph putting SWIZZELS on the side of the chimney and a sheepdog in the foreground.

 

What has he been smoking again?
umtali  
#13 Posted : 08 August 2010 19:24:29(UTC)
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buggyite wrote:

Did you come across any camels, parrots or Trotter family members to photograph?

 

Think I saw granddad “Trotter” in “Horwich End” he was muttering and staring at his front gate.
CllrJonG  
#14 Posted : 08 August 2010 20:31:31(UTC)
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Umtali,

Please keep the threads on subject. This was intended to be a serious thread. If you have nothing to add that is of interest or relevant, then please dont bother posting.

 

Jon.

 

Jon Goldfinch - Forum Administrator and Town Councillor
Whaley Bridge Town Council - Fernilee Ward

cllr.jong.wbtc@googlemail.com
CllrJonG  
#15 Posted : 08 August 2010 21:41:06(UTC)
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Hi,

 

buggyite wrote:

perhaps JGTC might like to ask specifically why this expensive bridge replacement is needed purely for one train of empties.

The reasons given by Network Rail are provided in the supporting material which can be found at the link I gave.

Firstly, the replacement is required to provide an alternative lengthy temporary route while the Dove Holes Tunnel is closed for lengthy repairs. The Dove Holes Tunnel carries minerals from the 3 Peak quarries (Dowlow,Tunstead and Peak Forrest) on the Chinley to Buxton line.

Secondly, the Whaley line (i.e BEJ line) could provide a diversionary route to allow rerouting of trains during planned works(such as maintenence to Dove Holes tunnel): "Network Rail’s freight customers EWS and Freightliner,Heavy Haul and their end-customers such as Lafarge, Cemex, RMC Roadstone, ICI Chemicals and Polymers Group, ICI Lime Division, Tarmac and Peakstone (Beswick Lime Quarry) have indicated that in order to safeguard their businesses, it is essential to retain the flexibility of routing trains via both the BEJ and CNB routes."

Thirdly, Network Rail is currently looking at the feasibility of creating a 'Manchester Hub' to provide better links with key rail services across the north of England. The resolution of capacity issues around Manchester are considered vital for the economy of the north of England.

Fourthly, the Sheffield to Stockport line is at capacity and is a constraint to growth. "By relieving Freight trains from this route and diverting them via the Buxton to Stockport route(i.e via the BEJ line through Whaley - JG), capacity will be released for other services and therefore allow for growth in rail services."

With respect to the need to be able to run freight at 50mph over a new bridge, rather than running it at a lower speed over a strengthened bridge the argument seems to be about line capacity. There is currently a 10mph speed limit for freight over the unstrengthened existing bridge : "Directly linked to line speed, capacity is limited on the BEJ route because of the risk associated with heavy freight trains, therefore freight is restricted to limited weekend movements only. The speed restriction (currently 10mph JG) does not allow for freight to be interspersed with passenger trains without significantly impacting on travelling times." 

Cheers

Jon.

Jon Goldfinch - Forum Administrator and Town Councillor
Whaley Bridge Town Council - Fernilee Ward

cllr.jong.wbtc@googlemail.com
Fedup  
#16 Posted : 08 August 2010 21:51:41(UTC)
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This is very serious. Is there anything that the residents of Whaley Bridge and other affected villages can do to oppose the scheme?

Edited by user 08 August 2010 21:52:15(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

CllrJonG  
#17 Posted : 08 August 2010 21:56:12(UTC)
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Hi,

Please indicate your objection, or support,  via the link provided in my first post.

 

Cheers

Jon.

Jon Goldfinch - Forum Administrator and Town Councillor
Whaley Bridge Town Council - Fernilee Ward

cllr.jong.wbtc@googlemail.com
Kiv35  
#18 Posted : 09 August 2010 02:50:39(UTC)
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Dear Forum,

If the objection is only to the change in asthetic apperance to the structure, there are many ways to get around this.

The bridge could be upgraded to increase the linespeed and the external apperance still give the look of a Victorian structure, its all down to £.

Try doing this upgrade in Brighton , English heritage would not give you the anwser they proffer for Whaley Bridge.

Shout loud enough and they will listen. 

Also, if the linespeed is to be increased to facilitate the stone deliveries from the quarries, I would be happy to bet a £1 that some financial assistance will be forthcoming from the groups that operate the quarries.  

Regards,

R. Stephenson-Smythe  
#19 Posted : 09 August 2010 08:08:14(UTC)
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Hang on a minute Jon,
 
This was discussed a long time ago, on the last forum I think, and certainly Jake was involved in and may have even started the discussion.
 
I haven’t, to hand, a copy of what was said but from memory I am sure that Jake said the tonnage would rise from about 900,000 tons to somewhere approaching 20 million tons. I also can not remember whether this was monthly or annually. Surely not weekly or all the older houses will start to fall down.
 
I remember at the time mentioning this to a pal of mine who lived very close to the railway line and he was in a panic about it.
 
Has that situation changed? I don’t mean about my mate’s panic attacks but the weight of freight.
 
 
R. S-S
tyke  
#20 Posted : 09 August 2010 08:30:59(UTC)
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It seems here that we are all against any imrovements to our railway line and beginning to sound a bit like NIMBYS. Yes an increase in traffic upon our railway line would impact to some extent on our town. If this is temporary then thats not too bad or even if we have an overall increase in the current level of freight. I doubt very much that if completed the line would become as busy as the west coast main line or anthing approaching it. Would we really object to say a couple of freight trains or so a day? Trains do carry a lot of tonnage at a time so would there be that many? We do though have to balance that with the fact that our branch line is under used and heavily subidised. Its infrastructure is still very aged (network rail's term). In the current economic climate we must be very wary, subsidies can be cut leading to a poorer service or even in the extreme, closure. We must not be complacent and not really against any scheme that would increase revenue for the line. I Think our best bet is to not oppse the replacement of the bridge as such but try to work with network rail and english heritage and get an upgrade that is perhaps more in keeping with the current bridges victorian appearance. If we stopped the bridge upgrade and Doveholes tunnel had to close then all the output from the quarries would then have to go by road, now that would impact even more seriously on our towns and villages. Once all the work was complete we would then  have a better maintained railway probably with newer and better maintained track etc.

 

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