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R. Stephenson-Smythe  
#1 Posted : 04 September 2010 12:12:53(UTC)
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Good Morning Buggyite,
 
I’m taking a day off this morning so I’ll have a chance to look out some railway stuff for you and Parabuild.
 
But first up here is an extract from John Warren’s Diary with a reference to the Whaley Incline.
 
John Warren Diary.
 
1863 Tuesday August 24th    The Commenced altring the in Cline plain of the High Peak Real way at Whaley Bridge to work a Engin up the plain called the all pine    Maid at Birkinhead on a new princepel.
 
 
I have the reports of the Alpine tests, and to an old railway enthusiast such as yourself, I am sure they would be of great, nay immense, interest.
 
Of course you may already have these within your own archives but if not just say the word and they will appear on here as if by magic.
 
R. S-S
R. Stephenson-Smythe  
#2 Posted : 04 September 2010 12:19:30(UTC)
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Buggyite wrote:
 
I would love to see the reports of the tests of the "Alpine" system.  Everything I have read so far points to these tests taking place on the Bunsall Incline, rather than the Whaley Bridge one, so if you could settle this matter more convincingly than you managed to persuade me about the fate of Errwood Hall's gateposts, that would be excellent!
The Alpine system was invented by John Barraclough Fell, and is still used on the Snaefell Mountain Railway on the Isle of Man, and was previously used on several railways across the Alps. Unlike other systems, which used a rack between the rails, Fell's method used an extra rail, laid sideways on supports between the normal running rails. Wheels, either side of this centre rail "gripped" it, using very strong springs to ensure a firm contact.
I have this referring to the tests:
"The first engine . . . . was intended to test the system for application to the Mount Cenis Railway (In Italy). It was tried on a track 800 yards long, of 3' 7½" gauge' laid on a gradient of 1 in 13½ on the High Peak Railway"
Now Bunsall Incline was 455 yards at 1 in 7, and then 660 yards at 1 in 7½, which doesn't really fit in with the description above.
Shallcross Incline was 817 yards at 1 in 10½, so the length suggests the tests might have been here, though the gradient is different.
Whaley Incline is only 180 yards long, but it is 1 in 13½, so the gradient matches, but it's hard to imagine where JB Fell found the extra 620 yards of uphill, if this was the location!
Ahh, another bit...
"180 yards of Fell's test track was straight, with a gradient of 1 in 13, 150 yards with a gradient of 1 in 12, with curves of 2½ chains radius"  Maybe it went up Bings.
 
R. Stephenson-Smythe  
#3 Posted : 04 September 2010 12:20:39(UTC)
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Good afternoon, Buggyite,
 
I’ve just had a read through the reports and there does appear to be a little confusion as to just where the tests were carried out.
So I will reproduce the reports as they are, in order and with no amendments and you must judge for yourself.
Although not personally a train fanatic these reports have made interesting reading for me.
 
R. S-S
R. Stephenson-Smythe  
#4 Posted : 04 September 2010 12:41:52(UTC)
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Buxton Advertiser
 
2 January 1864
 
tramway on mont cenis.   
 
Newspaper readers have, at different times, been informed of the proposal submitted by Mr Fell, in concert with Messrs Brassey and Jackson, to the French and Italian Governments, for laying down a tramway on the present Mont Cenis route, covering the same with wooden, iron, and stone galleries, and working it by means of a new and lighter species of locomotives, so that the distance between Susa and St. Michel, which now takes ten, might be safely and regularly traversed in a period of from four to five hours.   
The first series of these Mont Cenis locomotive experiments for producing a low engine capable of carrying a train of 100 passengers with their luggage over the mountain have had satisfactory results.    The trials have been made on an incline of 1 in 13 (the Mont Cenis being 1 in 12) , and the experimental engine, a new one on Mr Fell’s peculiar system, has taken up and down the entire load proposed, whilst the break power for descending is most perfect.   
A great number of practical and scientific men have been witnessing these locomotive experiments with much interest, and now a second series of experiments is just being commenced, viz., on a gradient of 12, and curves of 30 and 50 metres radius combined, for which a piece of line is in process of construction in the fac-simile of the Mont Cenis.
 
These Mont Cenis locomotive experiments have been carried on at the Cromford and High Peak Railway, Whaley Bridge, and, as may be easily supposed, the reports of their progress are received with the greatest interest throughout Italy, it being hoped by their means to solve the problem of a rapid and comparatively cheap communication, not only across the great passes of the Alps, but likewise over those of the Appenines.
 
Loads more to come on this topic, Buggyite,
 
But as it is a bit specialised and may not be of interest to many readers I might present it a little more quickly than usual.
 
R. S-S
 
umtali  
#5 Posted : 04 September 2010 15:30:48(UTC)
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R. Stephenson-Smythe wrote:
 

But as it is a bit specialised and may not be of interest to many readers I might present it a little more quickly than usual.
 
R. S-S
 

Your shirts are ready lads.

R. Stephenson-Smythe  
#6 Posted : 05 September 2010 10:41:21(UTC)
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6 January 1864
 
trial of an alpine locomotive at whaley bridge
 
 
An interesting trial of a locomotive engine, built on novel principles at the Canada Works, Birkenhead, took place yesterday, at Whaley Bridge, on the Cromford and High Peak Railway, and upon a short line made especially for the experiment. The engine is constructed to ascend and descend steep gradients, to pass sharp curves, and to perform work which locomotives as yet have never been accomplished.    The inventor and patentee, Mr J.B. Fell, has gone upon the principle of obtaining increased adhesion without increase of weight.    In the centre of the carriage way a raised rail, considerably larger than the ordinary lines, is laid down; and the engine and carriages are fitted with well lubricated horizontal wheels, which, by pressing on either side of the centre rail, produces the adhesion, necessary for working up steep inclines.   
The practical object of this invention cannot but be greatly interesting, inasmuch as it proposes to run a line of railway for passengers, mails and merchandise, over the very heart of the Alps, and along a road hitherto considered impassable for locomotives.   
It is the well-known military road hewn out of such giant difficulties by the first Napoleon, that it is contemplated to traverse. At present there is a tract of mountain pass 48 miles in length between the two great railway systems of France and North Italy, the terminus of the former being San Michel, in Savoy, and the latter Susa, in Piedmont.   
The Mont Cenis, by which this district is known, has been considered so important for purposes of traffic, that the French and Italian governments five years ago commenced the excavation of a tunnel, to remove the difficulties so often felt.   
At the lowest computation this great undertaking will take twelve years to complete. The proposed railway over the surface of the pass will only be two years in making, and the projectors would therefore have ten years of working before the tunnel was available for traffic.   
The district has been thoroughly surveyed by Mr Fell in connection with a company of well-known English capitalists and contractors, and the scheme has met with the approbation of the Italian government.   
The present road is sufficiently wide to accommodate the railway, and leave room for local traffic, and the usual engineering labours of tunnelling,, &c. will not be required. The chief difficulty, however, is that which the new locomotive is especially designed to overcome, namely, the excessive steepness.   
Starting from San Michel, the road gradually rises as far as the village of Lanslebourg, whence it takes a rapid ascent, with gradients of 1 in 12 to the summit of the pass, which is 7,000 feet above the level of the sea.    From this point there is an equally rapid descent to Suse.   
In addition to this rising and falling there are frequent sharp curves.   
It is proposed to cover in those portions of the line where it is known avalanches and snow-drifts fall.   
The locomotive to be employed here is, in fact, a double engine, a horizontal and vertical engine combined --- and so arranged that it may be worked either together or separate, according to the steepness of the incline. Not the least feature of this invention is the safety which it ensures.   
The horizontal wheel referred to above, facilitates the passage of curves, and enables the driver to stop the engine in the middle of the steepest gradient, give a propulsive pressure of several tons, and, by means of the flanges which underlap the central rail, renders it nearly impossible that the carriages can be overturned. The brakes are extremely powerful, and, as they are attached to each carriage, no danger can arise from a coupling chain giving way. The extreme narrowness of the gauge renders the curves less difficult to pass, gives more room for the public road, and greatly assists in erecting the covered ways for the more dangerous parts.
 
The trials yesterday were in every way successful and for once the High Peak proved an aid rather than an obstacle to the engineer. There were two inclines; the first being 200 yards long, at a gradient of one in 13, and the other 150 yards long, at a gradient of one in 12, with curves of about two chains radius. This represents the most difficult part of the Mont Cenis road.    The shortness of the line upon which the experiment was made prevented the full getting up of steam, and the trial may therefore be taken as a fair test.    The locomotive itself, weighing 16 tons, but with a tractive force of 32 tons --- first ascended and descended the lines, stopping in the middle, and going backwards and forwards as required with perfect ease.    Four wagons, laden with 26 tons of ballast, were then attached, and the experiment was repeated with equally satisfactory results.    It is proposed to work the Mont Cenis line at an average speed of 12 miles per hour, thus performing the journey in from four to five hours.   The number of passengers will not exceed 190 - equivalent to twenty-four tons.
          Within the past week many of the principal engineers of the country have witnessed these experiments under the personal direction of Mr Fell; and the novelty of an engine and wagons running easily and safely up and down a hill, which would make the most courageous “whip” look twice before he risked himself and horses by venturing down, is beheld by crowds of gaping and awestruck rustics, who seem to doubt whether it is prudent or not to believe the evidence of their own eyes.    The London & North Western Railway have liberally given to Mr Fell the use of their line, and afforded other facilities for the trial of the new locomotive.    The trials will be continued today and tomorrow.
 
 
R. Stephenson-Smythe  
#7 Posted : 08 September 2010 08:25:48(UTC)
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I hope you are reading this Buggyite, (???)
 
This is a copy of a letter to the editor of the Glossop Record.
 
Somehow it seems it could almost have been written by you or one of your forefathers.
 
Anyway it was certainly expected: Whaley Bridge residents, “awe-struck rustics” indeed.
 
 
 
Glossop Record
 
 
30 January 1864
 
                   TRIAL OF AN ALPINE LOCOMOTIVE
 
                             To the Editor of the Record       
 
Sir,
 
On reading in the Examiner of the 9th (sic) instant, an account of the trial of an Alpine Locomotive at Whaley Bridge, I was both surprised and amused at the laudatory manner in which the writer spoke of the success of the invention of Mr J.B. Fell, and of the inhabitants of the neighbourhood, as gaping awe-struck rustics, who could not believe the evidence of their own senses.   
Now Sir, the compliment to the awe-stricken rustics of the neighbourhood appears to be akin to the writer’s notions of the success of this novel alpine locomotive, and brings to my mind the experimental trial of a safety break van, constructed for the purpose of doing away with the risks attendant on ascending and descending the inclines of the Cromford and High Peak Railway, some four years ago, and which was reported, by some over-wise individual, as a decided success.    Whereas on the day of the trial of this so much vaunted invention, which was to set at rest for ever all possible accidents on the inclines, the draw bar of the van broke, and the result was ---a run---a sudden stop---a pitching from one side of the van to the other---a general flying about of hats, belonging to some half dozen scientific gentlemen---a knocking of heads, and an indescribable melee on the floor of the van; it was quietly shelved afterwards.   
Now, I do not predict this fate for the great invention of Mr Fell’s; neither do I endorse all the eulogies of the over sanguine correspondent alluded to; but I believe it to be a long remove from perfection; in fact, those parts of which he speaks so highly, will have to be dispensed with, before the invention can compete with the present modes of working inclines, either in point of safety or of cost.   
And again, I feel convinced that the central rail and engines too might be dispensed with advantageously, and a more simple, safe and effective means adopted to increase the adhesion of the outer wheels on the rails, than that devised by Mr Fell.   
In fact, improvements of a most important character, suggested by one of the awe-stricken rustics on the engine’s first arrival on the trial ground, are at this moment being carried out by Mr Fell and his coadjutors.   
The brakes which were so highly extolled as being all-powerful, are not to be relied upon, as the succeeding trial of the 7th will show.   
After the experiments on the miniature Mount Cenis road were over, and the principal break truck was descending the lower incline, without connection with the engine, the break power was insufficient, and the truck acquired such a velocity in running down the 200 yards incline, as to carry it over 100 yards of level road at the bottom, through the engine shed, and through the gable end of a wagon cover maker’s shop, to the great bodily risk and consternation of the workmen.   
This is perhaps not the kind of safety spoken of by the Manchester correspondent; when he sat down to give such a glowing account of the benefits to be derived in ascending and descending the mountain pass of Mount Cenis.   
Many defects and omissions might be cited, but my object in writing is, to place the matter before the public in its true light, and to clear the awe-stricken natives of the writer’s sarcasms.   
I now leave the matter in the hands of its promoters, and wish it every success.      
 
Yours &c.
 
                                      a spectator.
 
 
Wow he told them didn’t he?
 
R. S-S
buggyite  
#8 Posted : 08 September 2010 08:52:00(UTC)
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Excellent stuff there, R.S-S.

I have indeed been reading all of these reports, in the manner of an awe-struck rustic, obviously.

I've been looking for some good clues to help finally decide exactly where these trials took place, but to no real avail. Each "positive" identification seems to get dashed by further information that precludes the test track being built where I think it was.

Clearly, the description of the test track being built alongside the High Peak Railway is right, even allowing for the gauge differences, it would not be possible to fit Fell's centre rail within the tracks of one of the inclines, as that is where the haulage chain runs. My first thoughts were that the initial test track would have been built alongside the Whaley Incline, as the gradients and length match nicely, but I am not sure there is room for effectively a third track alongside the incline. Then this latest description of the brake van running away and travelling 100 yards beyond the bottom of the incline makes it very hard to believe that it could have been the Whaley Incline.

The suggestion that the brake van went through a wagon cover maker's workshop, however, would seem to suggest that the trial took place somewhere where there is business activity, which rather rules out Bunsall incline. It would also have been sensible to run the trials not too far from a local pub or two, in case of fatal accidents! I am slowly coming to the conclusion that both lengths of test track were built alongside Shallcross incline.

I don't suppose you have the report that the correspondent refers to in the Glossop Examiner, do you?

Or are you keeping me on tenterhooks by withholding the best?

Edited by user 08 September 2010 08:53:41(UTC)  | Reason: emboldening important word

Buggyite
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R. Stephenson-Smythe  
#9 Posted : 08 September 2010 09:15:25(UTC)
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Very sorry, Buggyite,
 
I somehow missed the article in which we were described as awe-struck rustics.
 
Here it is in full.
 
By the way the location of the trials will be discussed on here in detail later in the week.
 
R. S-S
 
Glossop Record
 
9 January 1864   (Saturday.)
 
 
TRIAL OF AN ALPINE LOCOMOTIVE
 
An interesting trial of a locomotive engine, built on novel principles at the Canada Works, Birkenhead, took place on Tuesday, at Whaley Bridge, on the Cromford and High Peak Railway, and upon a ‘short line made specially for the experiment.’    The engine is constructed to ascend and descend deep gradients, to pass sharp curves, and to perform work which locomotives as yet have never been accomplished.    The inventor and patentee, Mr J.B. Fell, has gone upon the principle of obtaining increased adhesion without increase of weight.    In the centre of the carriage way a raised rail, considerably larger than the ordinary lines, is laid down; and the engine and carriages are fitted with well lubricated horizontal wheels, which, by pressing on either side of the centre rail, produces the adhesion, necessary for working up steep inclines.    The practical object of this invention cannot be but interesting, inasmuch as it proposes to run a line of railway for passengers, mails and merchandise, over the very heart of the Alps, and along a road hitherto considered impassable for locomotives.    It is the well-known military road hewn out of such giant difficulties by the first Napoleon, that it is contemplated to traverse.    At present there is a tract of mountain pass 48 miles in length between the two great railway systems of France and North Italy, the terminus of the former being San Michel, in Savoy, and the latter Suse, in Piedmont.    The Mont Cenis, by which this district is known, has been considered so important for purposes of traffic, that the French and Italian governments five years ago commenced the excavation of a tunnel, to remove the difficulties so often felt.    At the lowest computation this great undertaking will take twelve years to accomplish.   The proposed railway over the surface of the pass will only be two years in making, and the projectors would therefore have ten years in working before the tunnel was available for traffic.    The district has been thoroughly surveyed by Mr Fell in connection with a company of well-known English capitalists and contractors, and the scheme has met with the approbation of the Italian government.    The present road is sufficiently wide to accommodate the railway ,and leave room for local traffic, and the usual engineering labours of tunnelling,, &c. will not be required.   The chief difficulty, however, is that which the new locomotive is equally designed to overcome, namely, the excessive steepness.    Starting from San Michel, the road gradually rises as far as the village of Lanslebourg, whence it takes a rapid ascent, with gradients of 1 in 12 to the summit of the pass, which is 7,000 feet above the level of the sea.    From this point there is an equally rapid descent to Suse.    In addition to this rising and falling there are frequent sharp curves.    It is proposed to cover in those portions of the line where it is known avalanches and snow-drifts fall.    The locomotive to be employed here is, in fact, a double engine, a horizontal and vertical engine combined --- and so arranged that it may be worked either together or separate, according to the steepness of the incline.    Not the least feature of this invention is the safety which it ensures.    The horizontal wheels referred to above, facilitate the passage of curves, enable the driver to stop the engine in the middle of the steepest gradient, give a propulsive pressure of several tons, and, by means of the flanges which underlap the central rail, renders it nearly impossible that the carriages can be overturned.    The brakes are extremely powerful, and, as they are attached to each carriage, no danger can arise from a coupling chain giving way.    The extreme narrowness of the gauge renders the curves less difficult to pass, gives more room for the public road, and greatly assists in erecting the covered ways for the more dangerous parts.
          The trials on Tuesday were in every way successful and for once the High Peak proved an aid rather than an obstacle for the engineer.    There were two inclines; the first being 200 yards long, at a gradient of one in 13, and the other 150 yards long, at a gradient of one in 12, with curves of about two chains radius. This represents the most difficult part of the Mont Cenis road.    The shortness of the line upon which the experiment was made prevented the full getting up of steam, and the trial may therefore be taken as a fair test.    The locomotive itself, weighing 16 tons, but with a tractive force of 32 tons --- first ascended and descended the lines, stopping in the middle, and going backwards and forwards as required with perfect ease.    Four waggons, laden with 26 tons of ballast, were then attached, and the experiment was repeated with equally satisfactory results.    It is proposed to work the Mont Cenis line at an average speed of 12 miles, thus performing the journey in from four to five hours.   The number of passengers will not exceed 190 - equivalent to twenty-four tons.
          Within the past week many of the principal engineers of the country have witnessed these experiments under the personal direction of Mr Fell;  and the novelty of an engine and waggons running easily and safely up and down a hill, which would make the most courageous “whip” look twice before he risked himself and horses by venturing down, is beheld by crowds of gaping and awestruck rustics, who seem to doubt whether it is prudent or not to believe the evidence of their own eyes.
 
R. Stephenson-Smythe  
#10 Posted : 09 September 2010 13:28:03(UTC)
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Well Buggyite here we have the controversy in print as to just exactly where the trials took place.
 
I think I have about another 3 for you to look at but I am sure you will already have read them in the past but I would like your final opinion on the location at the end.
 
R. S-S
 
 
The Cromford & High Peak Railway.
 
A. Rimmer.
 
Before leaving the subject of motive power, mention must be made of the trials which were carried out with a Fell-type engine on one of the inclines.    These locomotives, designed for use on lines where severe gradients were encountered, had two sets of wheels placed horizontally between the frames, driven by separate cylinders, and gripping a raised central rail.    E.L. Ahrons mentions these locomotives in his book The British Steam Railway Locomotive, 1825-1925, saying: “The first engine . . . was intended to test the system for application to the Mont Cenis Railway.    It was tried on a track 800 yards long, of 3 ft. 73/8 in. gauge, laid on a gradient of 1 in 13½ on the High Peak Railway, Derbyshire.”
Some controversy has arisen as to the actual site of the trials, which took place in two series between September 1863 and July 1865.    At first sight the gradient suggest the Whaley Bridge Incline, but this can be dismissed on the grounds of length.    So the choice then rests on Hopton, at 1 in 14, or the disused Hurdlow Incline at 1 in 16.    In his book Rambles on Railways, published in 1868, Sir Cusack P. Roney wrote: “Early in 1863, Mr Fell instituted experiments on a length of 800 yards, laid to his plan, upon the Cromford & High Peak Railway near Whaley Bridge; The gauge was 3 ft 7½ in., 180 yards of the line was straight with a gradient of 1 in 13 (406 ft. in 1 mile), 150 yards with a gradient of 1 in 12 (440 ft. in 1 mile), with curves of 2½ chains radius.”    Two points of interest arise here.    First, the date “Early in 1863” can be refuted by referring to a paper read by Mr Fell himself to the British Association in 1866, which gives the dates quoted earlier.    Then the phrase “near Whaley Bridge” needs some consideration.    As previously mentioned, the Whaley Bridge Incline is far too short to fit the description, and the only other one “near Whaley Bridge”, namely Shallcross, rises a matter of 240 ft. in 800-odd yards, which is too steep.    The total rise of the 330-yard incline quoted by Sir Cusack would be 70 ft.    This figure could have been achieved by using part of the Hopton Incline, although whether the railway company would have gone to the trouble which would have been caused by the laying of at least one other running rail, and the central rail, on an incline, which was in regular use is open to question.    It is of course possible that the lines were laid alongside those already existing, but, even accepting this, the extremely sharp curves (2½ chains) make it very doubtful if Hopton was the actual site.
The other possibility, the disused Hurdlow Incline, would appear to be more likely.    Although the gradients do not exactly agree, there would have been no interference with normal traffic, and curves of the radius specified could have been specially laid out for the purpose of the trials.    Curves of this radius do exist on the Cromford & High Peak Railway, but they are not in the vicinity of any of the inclined planes.    Reference to the one-inch Ordnance map of the district shows that the course of the old railway from Hurdlow onwards had some sharp curves in it, whereas the Hopton Incline is quite straight, and is approached by a curve of considerable radius.    Possibly one day some papers will be unearthed to throw more light on the correct site; until that day comes, it is still a matter for conjecture.           
 
 
buggyite  
#11 Posted : 09 September 2010 14:09:40(UTC)
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Curiouser and Curiouser!

I have Mr Rimmer's book on the Cromford and High Peak Railway, but my edition differs considerably in the section relating to the tests of the Fell system. In my copy he mentions Mr W Eyre of Whaley Bridge giving him details from John Warren's diary. He ends by saying "The author is satisfied that the trials took place in Whaley Bridge although at times, sites such as Hopton, and adjacent to the Bunsall incline have been put forward as possibilities".

Now, given what John Warren had to say, and what the somewhat annoyed "A Spectator" wrote in his letter to the editor of the Glossop Record (or Examiner as he called it), I have no doubt that the trials took place in the Whaley Bridge area, and definitely not Hurdlow.

Now, whether the Whaley Incline was the site, or Shallcross, or perhaps both were used, I can not decide. I'm also prepared to accept that the test track may have been built by Bunsall Incline, though I suspect that John Warren would have stated if it was this far out of Whaley town.

Incidentally I found the letter from "A Spectator" had been written in a strangely familiar tone - Are you sure that you are not A Spectator-Smythe in the real world and this R.S-S isn't just an internet persona? If you are a little younger than 160 years old, perhaps it was an ancestor of yours!

 

ps. I am sure this isn't my FINAL opinion yet

Edited by user 09 September 2010 14:11:24(UTC)  | Reason: added ps

Buggyite
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R. Stephenson-Smythe  
#12 Posted : 09 September 2010 18:54:19(UTC)
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The Cromford & High Peak Railway
 
John Marshall
 
An interesting experiment was carried out on the CHPR in 1863-4.    On 20 November 1862 John Barraclough Fell applied to the LNWR for permission to experiment on one of the CHPR inclines with a centre-rail locomotive to establish the feasibility of the system for the projected railway over the Mont Cenis Pass.    The LNWR Special Committee minutes on 3 September 1863 recorded that permission was granted provided that Fell paid all costs.
On 24 August Warren recorded in his diary that work had begun on ‘altring the in Cline plain of the High Peak Real way at Whaley Bridge to work a Engin up the plain Calld the all pine, Maid at Birkinhead on a new princepel.’ (sic).    From this it appears that the locomotive was named Alpine.It was built at Canada Works, Birkenhead and was tested on the incline at Whaley Bridge from September 1863 to February 1864.     At this period the Whaley incline was undergoing reconstruction, as explained above, and it would be a simple matter to lay in the centre rail and a third rail to provide the 3ft 73/8 in gauge.    Apparently the locomotive worked the traffic up and down the incline and around the adjacent sharp curves.    It is described in The Engineer of 8 and 22 January 1864.    Mr A. Alexander of Millwall Ironworks, London, claimed to have designed it.    The experiment is described in detail by Captain Tyler in the Minutes of Proceedings of the Institute of Civil Engineers, Vol 26, 1866-7.    The Engineer and a reference in the Buxton Advertiser on 2 January 1864 leave no doubt that the tests were carried out between Shallcross yard and Whaley Bridge, including sharp curves and the Whaley incline.    The gauge is given variously as 1.1 m, 3ft
73/8 in and 3ft 75/8 in.    
 
shallcross  
#13 Posted : 09 September 2010 21:05:08(UTC)
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Buggyite

You understand Rails more than I this Image I dont think is 1865 it looks later what do you think RSS? can you  explain what we are looking at ?

shallcross attached the following image(s):
WB Cromford HPR Incline.jpg
Shallcross
george  
#14 Posted : 11 September 2010 19:34:54(UTC)
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Hi shallcross

The photo on posting 13 cannot before 1948, As it shows the Co-op garage roof (still used as a garage) on the left which was built around 1949-50. The white post which is in front of the garage and has it's back to us is a warning not to cross the line when, either when the bell is ringing or when waggons are moving. There was also another notice along the bottom of the incline. Many people walked down the incline on their way to work at the Goyt Mill (known locally as the shed) and up again after work. There was also another path along the bottom of the incline almost on top of the wall by the Fire Station. I remember I used to ride my bike along there and one day fell into the wakes ground, now the Fire Station yard. 

george

shallcross  
#15 Posted : 11 September 2010 20:48:00(UTC)
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Hello George

Thanks for the info I knew that it wasn't as old as the trials that are been discussed but are they a remnant of the said trials? maybe they never removed them after, as I've said rails are not my strongest area, I too used to cut down here when I was apprentice  on the Bingswood Estate but it must have been a few years after you fell off your bike, it's good to read peoples personal snipits though most interesting I think..

Shallcross
buggyite  
#16 Posted : 14 September 2010 18:32:47(UTC)
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Hello Shallcross,

Sorry for taking a while to get back to you over this.

Your photograph in post 42/43  on the other railway thread shows horses hauling on the level section between the Old Road level crossing and the top of the incline. Your other photo above, looking down the incline,  clearly shows the chain that was used to haul the wagons up and down the incline and not remnants of the JB Fell tests. Basically, this was a continuous chain that went round a couple of large "pulley" wheels at the top and bottom of the incline, with the top one connected via a gear or two to a horse gin. The horse walked round and round in a circle, and the wagons (that had been fastened to this chain temporarily) were hauled up and let down the incline. There were always two tracks on the cable or chain-worked inclines on the Cromford & High Peak, and it was normal practice to arrange things so that whenever wagons were being hauled up, other wagons were being "let down" on the other track. As most of the traffic would have been limestone for transhipment onto the canal, and coal for Goyt Mills and Whaley Print Works, the downward traffic would normally have been heavier than uphill traffic on this incline. Therefore the horses on the gin would not have an awful lot to do.

Now, as to the piece that R S-S posted from John Marshall, I have to disagree totally with his suggestion that the centre rail could have been laid in between the existing tracks, as that is where the haulage chains ran. I've done a bit of a diagram below to illustrate that the 3rd rail to provide the 3' 7½" gauge, and the centre rail just would not have fit. Furthermore, the contemporary accounts refer to the second tests taking place on an incline that had curves on it, so this means the test track would have to have been adjacent to, rather than built on any of the inclines. 

buggyite attached the following image(s):
track.jpg
Buggyite
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shallcross  
#17 Posted : 14 September 2010 19:16:17(UTC)
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Hi Buggyite

Now thats a very good description of what was going on, from someone who has a good knowledge of the subject I especially like the diagram very precise, its always said a pictures worth a thousand words thanks for sharing that with us.

I fear RSS has a lot to catch up on when he returns from his sojurn, unless that is of course he's gone mobile and has been checking in whilst trekking through inhospitable terrain.

 

Shallcross
R. Stephenson-Smythe  
#18 Posted : 20 September 2010 12:49:03(UTC)
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Hello Shallcross,
 
You are correct, as always, that I have much to catch up on. A week is a long time in the life of the Whaley Forum.
 
But things have not been as bad for me as you suggest I have not been trekking through inhospitable terrain on this occasion; I have actually had a very well earned and deserved rest on a Mediterranean island. But more of that later when I get chance to reply to our good friend Horwich Ender on another thread which will concern unusual practices encountered whilst in foreign climes.
 
Anyway back to the Alpine Railway:
 
I have just a couple more morsels that should interest Buggyite and he won’t have to wait long for them because here is the first one:
 
The Engineer
 
January 8th 1864 
 
A proposal has been laid before the French and Italian Governments by Messrs Brassey and Jackson and Mr Fell, who has designed and patented a locomotive like Mr Sellers’, for working railway trams over a tramway to be laid on the present mail road over Mont Cenis.  
 Mr Fell has had made a tank locomotive engine weighing about fifteen tons, and having four cylinders, one pair outside, for driving the ordinary wheels, and another pair beneath the smoke-box, for working a pair or pairs of flanged wheels arranged to grip a central rail.   
The connecting rods of the inside cylinders work in a horizontal plane, and drive the axles of the horizontal wheels without the intervention of bevel gearing.   
The gripping wheels are held up to the central rail by stout springs, instead of by steam pressure, as preferred by Sellers.   
The mechanical details of Mr Fell’s plan, are, on the whole, more satisfactory than Sellers’, who brought out his arrangement seventeen years ago; but the general principle, and, indeed, most that is essential, is the same in both.   
Mr Fell’s engine is being worked on the Cromford and High Peak Railway at Whaley Bridge, where there are gradients, for upwards of several hundred yards in length, of 1 in 13, and curves of 2½ to 3 chains radius.    These experiments have been for some time in progress, and are to be extended.    We hear that they are very successful, and of the actual pull of a load up the steep incline and around the curves there can be no doubt.    The work is performed, too, with a lighter engine than would suffice if the ordinary construction were employed.    But in saying this we are speaking irrespective of speed.    With an adhesion equal to that of an ordinary six-coupled engine of 30 tons, Mr Fell takes up a train, the resistance of which is equal to the utmost pull of a 30-ton engine, and his engine actually weighs but 15 tons; but his boiler is smaller, and his supply of steam, and, therefore, his speed is less in proportion.    Speed is not, in this special case, of much consequence.    The real difficulty, and one which, we apprehend, will ultimately prove fatal to the four-cylinder engine, is its great complication, and, still more, the difficulties in maintaining the middle rail.    The lateral strain upon this will be irregular, and very great; and unless some mode of laying and maintaining this rail, different from that shown by Sellers and by Fell, be employed, the whole scheme must, we fear, end in a failure.
 
 
I hope that is of interest to you Buggyite and makes sense; to be honest it is a bit beyond me. Maybe things will become a little clearer as I include further details.
 
R. S-S
 
 
R. Stephenson-Smythe  
#19 Posted : 21 September 2010 16:14:19(UTC)
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Well blow me down, Buggyite,
 
No sooner do I post a newspaper article about Mr Fell’s locomotive trial in Whaley Bridge and then, before you can say Jack Robinson, someone comes immediately back and says it was nothing to do with Fell at all.
According to this Mr Alexander invented the train.
I fear there is trouble ahead and as I say: “Blow me down”.
 
R. S-S
 
 
The Engineer
 
January 22nd 1864
 
                             LETTERS TO THE EDITOR
 
                             LOCOMOTIVES FOR STEEP GRADIENTS.
 
SIR,--I have just observed in your journal of the 8th inst., an article upon “Locomotive Engines,” in which you refer to the engine patented by Mr Fell, now on trial at Whaley Bridge.    This engine was not “designed,” as stated by Mr Fell, but by myself on the principle suggested and recommended by him of providing wheels to embrace a mid-rail for securing increased adhesion.    I had, previously to the design and construction of the engine at Birkenhead, reported upon the project and named the main dimensions of engine and boiler, which I thought would attain the desired result in working an incline of 1 in 12.    I mention this because you found a somewhat unfavourable criticism upon the “great complication” of the engine.    As responsible for the design, I think part of that complication may be fairly attributed to the great haste with which the engine was required after its construction was ordered, as you must be aware that in such circumstances only a limited period can be allowed for the consideration of mechanical details, and it not infrequently occurs that better methods present themselves when the work is too far advanced to admit of their adoption.
I think it may be safely asserted that the present engine can be simplified, and this matter is now under consideration.    For an engine designed expressly to work steep gradients, there is nothing to prevent the application of one pair of cylinders only to the ordinary and mid-rail wheels, though, considering the amount of power to be transmitted and the limited speed of the pitch lines, I do not at present think bevel wheels the best method of effecting this modification.    In the engine now at Whaley Bridge each system was kept distinct and actuated by separate cylinders at Mr Fell’s request, the object being to observe the value of, and amount of steam required by, each apparatus separately.    The engine was designed to take a load of from 15 to 16 tons up an incline of one in twelve at a speed of from seven to eight miles per hour with each pair of cylinders, and the boiler was proportioned to afford an adequate supply of steam for this work; consequently, when all the cylinders are in use with a load of 30 tons, supposing the production of steam to be constant, the speed will be reduced about one half.     From the more powerful action of the double blast, however, it would appear that the speed is not reduced in so large a proportion.    It is hardly correct to say that the results observed have been obtained “at a sacrifice of speed,” for the principles of construction are in no respect to blame for this diminished speed.    The fact is, that when the engine is taking a load of 30 tons up an incline of 1 in 12, the boiler is developing as much power as in the case of a heavy goods engine pulling between 500 and 600 tons on a perfectly level and straight line at the same speed.   The resistance opposed by gravity is so great when contrasted with mere frictional resistance that, unless a great limitation of weight or speed be agreed to, the size of the boiler becomes a most serious obstacle in such engines.    
In the meantime the experimental engine has performed all that was promised of it, and with regard to the difficulty to which you refer of maintaining the middle rail, I can assure you that hitherto there has been no trouble whatever with it.    The equal pressures on each side of this mid-rail prevent any lateral pressure except what may arise from lateral deviation of the engine on the ordinary rails, and this is mitigated by the yielding of the horizontal springs as well as by the position of the horizontal wheels, which are close to each other, and midway between the centres of the bearing wheels.    I by no means assert that the plans embodied in this engine are the best which have been proposed for surmounting steep inclines, but the success which has hitherto attended the experiments carefully conducted by Mr Fell entitle the project to attentive consideration.    Meantime, I am not desirous of entering into discussion respecting the merits or demerits of the engine until at least the actual value of the principles involved shall have been thoroughly tested.    It seems to be quite certain that the commercial requirements of many communities have entailed and still necessitate the construction of railway communication in districts where the first cost of lines on ordinary gradients presents an insufferable obstacle, though, of course, the annual cost of working may be increased.    I am hopeful that engines constructed on principles such as that now at Whaley Bridge may be regarded by and by as affording a decided step towards the practical realisation of such projects
                                                                   A. Alexander, M.A.
          Millwall Ironworks, January 18, 1864.
 
 
R. Stephenson-Smythe  
#20 Posted : 23 September 2010 12:43:09(UTC)
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Good day, Buggyite,
 
You most probably have this but it may be new to some; that is if anyone other than you or I read this.
 
It does mention Fell’s Goyt Valley trials though.
 
R. S-S
 
 
The Railway Magazine
 
January 1961.
 
Fell’s Experimental Railway in Derbyshire by W. H. Hoult.
 
On of the minor mysteries of railway history is the precise location of the line on which trials were conducted with a Fell-type locomotive, before the construction of the Mont Cenis Railway.    In his book “Rambles on Railways,” published in 1868, Sir Cusack P. Roney wrote: “Early in 1863, Mr Fell instituted experiments on a length of line of 800 yd., laid out on his plan, upon the Cromford & High Peak Railway, near Whaley Bridge.    The gauge was 3 ft. 7½ in., 180 yd. of the line were straight with a gradient of 1 in 13 (406 ft. in the mile): 150 yd. with a gradient of 1 in 12 (440 ft. in the mile) ; with curves of two chains and a-half each.”
None of the inclines (either disused or working in 1863) of the Cromford & High Peak Railway quite satisfies the description, and the recent history of the Cromford & High Peak Railway, by A. Rimmer, summarises the controversy which has arisen as to the actual site of the trials, and concludes: “Possibly one day some papers will be unearthed to throw more light on the correct site; until that day comes, it is still a matter for conjecture.”    The present article is not based on the discovery of further papers, but offers the solution to the problem that a new track was laid specially for the trials, and that its site has been overlooked because it was not realised that there was a separate trial line.
The background to the trials is to be found in the need for improved Alpine communications.    In 1848, long before the establishment of the Kingdom of Italy, plans were prepared for a railway tunnel under the Mont Cenis Pass, between Piedmont and Savoy.    The scheme was delayed by war, but Victor Emanuel, then King of Sardinia, inaugurated the work on August 31, 1857, when it was expected that 25 years would be required to complete the tunnel.    It was the need for earlier alleviation of the Alpine transport difficulties which led to the development of the Fell Centre-rail system.
John Barraclough Fell, a far-sighted Englishman, was born in 1815, and early in his career became a railway contractor.    In 1852 he went to Italy, where for some years he was concerned with Italian railway construction as a partner in the firm of Brassey, Fell & Jopling.    He had on numerous occasions to traverse the Mont Cenis Pass, and concluded that it would be practicable to build a railway on Napoleon’s military road, a steeply-graded and zigzag route, if additional adhesion were secured by installing a centre rail upon which horizontal wheels on the locomotive could press.    A similar system had been advocated in the 1830s by Vignoles and Ericsson, but Fell stated that, when he planned his own system, he was not aware of earlier suggestions.    Fell’s first patent was taken out on January 20, 1863.    France had become interested in the Mont Cenis tunnel when it took over Savoy in 1859, and, to achieve railway transit more rapidly, the French Emperor Napoleon III issued a decree authorising the construction of the Mont Cenis railway by the side of the imperial post road.    Fell was appointed engineer to the French section, from St. Michel in the Savoy to the Italian frontier.
The fact of Fell’s preliminary experiments in Derbyshire is well known, but the precise location was not, as we have seen.   (There follows W.H. Hoult’s theory of the Bunsall Incline being the one used in the Fell trials.)
..........Thomas Brassey, the great contractor, was interested in Fell’s ideas.    He laid the track and financed the experiment.    Their train could ascend or descend 400 ft. in about a mile with formidable curves, on 53 yd. in radius..........
........Fell’s pioneer engine had two horizontal wheels driven along the central rail, one on each side.    The later French-built Alpine engines and carriages had four horizontal wheels.    The vertical wheels were 2 ft. 3 in. in diameter, and all six wheels in the Peak engine were driven from a pair of 12 in. diameter cylinders of 18 in. stroke.    The 16-ton engine could draw a load of 30 tons in favourable conditions up the slope with the help of the central rail, but without it the load was reduced to seven tons.    A model of the engine is in the Science Museum, South Kensington; the original was taken to Mont Cenis.
Fell’s Goyt Valley trials began in September, 1863, and continued intermittently until July, 1865.    Brassey may have used some of the plant from the construction of the Millers Dale to Buxton line, for this was sold by auction on September 12, 1863.    By 1865 Fell was already working on the Mont Cenis route and trials were carried out in the Arc Valley for three months in the spring of that year.    In August, 1866, he read, at the Nottingham meeting of the British Association for the Advancement of Science, a paper “On Locomotive Engines and Carriages on the Central Rail System for Working of Steep Gradients and Sharp Curves as Employed on The Mont Cenis Summit Railway.”
(There follows details of the Alpine Railway, linking Lyons and Milan, mention of other systems using steep gradients, and a little about Fell himself.)
He died at Southport on October 18, 1902 in the eighty-eighth year........ He took pleasure in relating three events in his life, namely, that he placed the first steamer on the English Lakes, launched on Windermere in 1851; that he built the first railway in the Papal States; and that he carried the first railway over the Alps.
 
 
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